#36 - Graduate Into the Money Life You Want with Eric Brotman

In this thought-provoking episode, I sit down with seasoned financial advisor and author Eric Brotman to rethink the traditional path to retirement. With over three decades of experience, Eric shares how financial planning has evolved, why retirement is an outdated goal, and how you can build a more fulfilling and financially independent life—on your own terms.

Key Highlights:

1. Retire the word “retirement” — why financial independence is a more empowering goal
2. How shame, procrastination, and mental blocks prevent financial progress
3. Simple, automated strategies for managing your money with less stress
4. The case for doing meaningful work for life, not quitting early
5. Why personalized planning matters more than income or net worth

If you're ready to challenge old beliefs and create a financial future aligned with your values, this episode is a must-listen. Listen now and start redefining what success looks like for you.

Eric D. Brotman, CFP®, is the CEO of BFG Financial Advisors in Maryland. He started in the financial planning industry in 1994 and launched a start-up in 2003 which has grown to over 20 employees and $800,000,000 in assets under management. He’s the author of three books including the award-winning "Don't Retire...Graduate!" and hosts a podcast by that same name.

Eric Brotman's Links:

Eric's Book, Don't Retire... Graduate!

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Don't Retire.. Graduate Podcast!

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Welcome to Always and Never About the Money. Are you ready to embark on a journey that will forever change the way you perceive money? We'll get ready because we're about to dive deep into the fascinating world of finances and human behavior. I'm your host, Chelsea Williams and Money Whisperer. I am here to help you realize what your money story is telling you and how you can change it.
But hold on tight because this is not the dull black and white talk about money. We're gonna splash all the color into this typical nap inducing conversation on Always and Never About the money. We're gonna explore the intricate relationship between money and our daily lives. From the impact history has left on us and how we still manage it, how your habits shape your money, and what beliefs are driving your habits, choices, and relationships to the deeper values and emotions we've come to attach to it.
We are going to unravel it all through insightful [00:01:00] conversation and personal anecdotes. We'll bring you the expert insights, real life stories and meaningful thought provoking ideas that will inspire you, educate you, and initiate some serious perspective change when it comes to your money. Remember, money is just a tool.
Together we'll untangle the web of emotions, beliefs, and values. We've come to attach to it and find a new perspective on how it can enhance our lives. So whether you're looking for motivation, practical advice, or a good laugh, always and never about the money's got you covered. Thank you for joining us in this transformative journey.
Get ready to challenge your beliefs and embark on a financial exploration like no other. Without further ado, let's kick off the episode of Always and Never About the Money. Sweet. Let's kick it off. Um, tell us in your own words what it is you do, how you came to do it, and why you love it. Well, I've been doing financial planning and wealth management for families for 32 years, which is hard to believe 'cause I remember being the young, precocious one in the room and now I'm the the [00:02:00] old seasoned veteran fellow in the room.
Uh, you know, I've really been helping, uh, folks not only navigate financial decisions, but navigate the decisions that mean more than money, the qualitative things, uh, parts of their lives that, um, where you can really touch. Uh, someone's life, their family, their uh, their loved ones, their, uh, philanthropy.
And there's so many different ways to make an impact. So that's what I've been doing. And, um, you know, started this company now 22 years ago and have grown it to, to 21 people and 10 financial advisors and am really training. Younger financial advisors, how to be great and how not to be transactional, and how to be, um, really good relationship managers and listeners and advocates.
And, uh, and so my, my role is changing that you're, the timing for this show couldn't be better because I'm stepping down as CEO January 1st and will be in a growth role. Um, uh, you know, my, my role is changing after all these years. It's [00:03:00] like having my first new job since I was 21. Which is kind of cool.
And, uh, and so that, that, what I love about what I do is I, I get to change lives. I get to impact lives every day. Whether it's, uh, the lives of the people who work with me here, uh, whether it's the lives of families we represent, or their loved ones or their interests that, you know, it's like Kevin Bacon.
There's two, three degrees of separation and everybody impacts lots of people. Um, also doing a lot of consulting with other financial advisors and helping teach them how to. Do some of the things that we've done, which means I also feel like I'm touching their clientele in a way that otherwise I would certainly not have.
So, um, trying to change the conversation around, um, around retirement, around, um, around money around. Um, all of the, all of the baggage that we carry from learning terrible lessons from our parents that we have to sort of break and figure out and, and that we bring into a marriage or a partnership. So that's a long answer to it was a three part question in fairness.
But, you know, I, I, I, I think what I love about it is impacting [00:04:00] people so profoundly and, and so positively. Yeah. I love that. And there's a few things that after what you said kind of sparked in me, so I know this, you know this, but I think that it would be beneficial for our listeners to hear this. The realm of financial planning has changed and evolved quite a bit.
Um, and so you have not only delegated yourself out of a position, which bravo by the way, that's the goal, right? For business owners. We gotta delegate our way out of a job. Yeah. I, I, I try to make myself both indispensable and irrelevant at the same time, which is a, a weird conundrum. It is an interesting balance for sure.
Yeah. Um, but clearly you've done something very right. Less than 5% of businesses make that 10 year mark. And so not only have you do more than doubled that over, um, you've created this team in this environment where it continues to grow and evolve without you. Mm-hmm. So can you tell us how has the landscape changed?
What did it used to be? What is it now? What should listeners really look for in a financial advisor that maybe they thought they should, but it's changed? I, I love your question because everything has changed and nothing has changed all at the same time, which sounds like some kind of poem or a song or something.
But, um, for, for all the ways that the industry has evolved, there are still a lot of, and I'm putting in quotes, advisors who have not evolved. And so there's, there's still gonna be a pendulum that needs to swing over the next, you know, 10 to [00:05:00] 30 years. I think, um, the way the business has evolved is less transactional, less sales, less commissions less, um, hunt and eat what you kill, for lack of a more elegant term.
Um, there's much less, um, much less solo. Uh, practitioners who are sort of in this for themselves and competing with the guy or gal next to them, um, there is a a lot less proprietary, uh, involvement. And by that I mean that, you know, the firms that used to control the information and manufacture the product and then push the product out to sell it.
Fortunately, those days are, I think, numbered and going away, and I think consumers, uh. Are getting savvy to that, and that's, that's a win. The way in which the business has really changed is to be much more, uh, consultative. Um, most, uh, practitioners who are independent in one way or another, whether they've created their own registered investment advisory or they're working with one, um, the, the level of advice, not only has the education improved and the level of advice improved, but the economics of the relationship has improved so that now you can actually pay someone for the advice and the advocacy and, and the, and being on the same side of the table, rather than feeling like someone's coming in to do something to you.
It's people doing things with and for you. And so that, that's more than just nuance. It's a big deal. And so, you know, when, when I, when I aim to build this firm, I wanted it to be different. I wanted it to be new school, so to speak. And so all of our advisors are [00:06:00] salaried. None of 'em are paid for any transaction or commissions of any kind, and none of 'em are paid to, to essentially do business with a particular client or family.
They're paid to do their job, which is to take great care and shepherd families through the process. And so client retention, client service, client experience is what it's really about. And by having a field of advisors that way, we all work together. We can all solve each other's, you know, and solve each other's challenges or, or talk about specific situations and not feel like there's competition in the room.
There isn't. Hmm. And I like the way you put that. And so essentially what has been kind of eliminated from the equation is. A commission motivation for, it's this, it's this motivating force through commission that is removed and where it invites a more collaborative approach to everything. And can you tell our listeners what is the relevance and should they be asking their people commission?
How do you work? Like how does that play a part into the process from a consumer standpoint, I. Well, let, let's start with the idea that a commission in and of itself as a, as a, an inducement to sell a product isn't by itself some form of evil. It, it has to be disclosed, it has to be understood. Some vehicles are priced in such a way that the commission is essentially baked into the purchase price, but there's no ongoing fee or, or cost on [00:07:00] the long term.
So I, I don't wanna make it sound like one size fits all and fees are good and commissions are bad. It's not that binary. There are, um, reasons why certain products are priced in certain ways, where certain solutions are priced in certain ways. So I don't think commission's a dirty word. I do think having a field force that is incented to sell product X that happens to be on the shelf of Firm X where they happen to get a W2 to me, is a major problem.
But going out to the open, the open universe and saying, there are 50 options here. We can look at, these are the two or three that we like and here's why. And yes, they might be commissionable transactions, but lemme explain why. I think that's okay. And, and if you're comfortable with that, that's fine. So I'm not trying to, to to paint commission-based, um, advisors as, as bad people.
They're not. They just have a, a conflict of interest that they must overcome to explain this is why something we're doing is absolutely in the best interest of those we represent. And it's a, it's a higher bar, it's a harder lift. So, you know, if, if you're being paid purely for advice and the advice can be implemented anywhere, um, that feels like the most objective conceivable situation.
But if you can also implement the advice where you're getting it, um, then there's still some conflict there. There's a lot of psychology in this. Um, you know, for, for us to be able to say, here's a, a fee for a plan. We're gonna do analysis, we're gonna provide recommendations, and you can decide, do you wanna [00:08:00] implement all of these, some of these, none of these.
Do you wanna do some of 'em yourself and have us implement some for you? Do you want to, do you want to do all of it yourself? Um, and it allows people to pick and choose a little bit how much help, how much help they want. You know, I liken it to the fact that any of us can go to Home Depot and buy all the stuff we need to build a house for ourselves.
I assure you, if I built a house for you, you would not wanna live in it. I don't have that skillset. I'm happy to try. I think it could be fun. But, um, so, so you can go into a place like that and you can say, I need all the supplies. I need all the materials, I need the blueprint. I need to know how to do this, and I'm gonna do it myself.
Or to say, I need the blueprint and then I'm gonna need some help with this. I understand the plumbing, but not the electrical. I need some help with some of the facets of this, but some of em I can handle myself and there's some cost savings in doing it that way sometimes. So I, I think really meeting families where they are and figuring out.
Not only what is your acumen, how comfortable are you with these decisions, but also how much time do you have? Is this how you wanna spend three hours with your spouse on a Sunday? Or would you rather be doing something else and are you actually gonna do it? Well, that's a whole nother story. Yes, accountability still matters and you can have accountability without having a firm like ours implement.
In other words, if we did an annual physical exam financially, we did an annual series of, of strategy meetings, and you have to come to our office the next year or be on a Zoom with us six months later or a year later, and we can say, so how did that, uh, how did that college plan [00:09:00] get set up? Did you do it and go.
Oh, we didn't, we forgot then. That's a, there's shame involved. You know, lots of shame. Which is, which is hard. Um, but there's also another opportunity either to either say, look, let us just let us handle this for you. Or Here's how you do it. Here's where you go, here's everything you need. And whichever way is fine.
Yeah. Let's, um, let's dig into the psychology a little bit. 'cause you mentioned the word shame, and I think that's one of the biggest. Words to describe what people feel when it comes to money in general. Yes. And then from where I'm sitting, there's this, there's this overarching intimidation when it comes to planning for retirement, investing in retirement, talking about the different investment modalities that we have access to, learning about them.
Like you said, getting educated and picking which one. It's just, it seems to be incredibly overwhelming. Like a lot of people I talk to are like, I don't even know where to begin. There's a lot of different things. I don't have time to to learn this. So let's go into that route of the psych, the psychology behind it, and then also is there a way to make it super simple for the first few steps of getting started?
I love your three part questions 'cause I have to remember what the first part was. I'll remind you. No, it's fine. In terms of shame, um, let's start with this premise that yes, there is so much psychological and behavioral baggage around money. Not only because of what we learned or didn't learn growing up, we didn't learn it in school.
If we learned it at home, it might have been watching our parents fight about money or struggle [00:10:00] with, can we afford this? Or it might have been such amplitude that money was like a joke and you were a trust baby. I mean there's there, there's that whole piece here. Um, people have incredible. Shame and discomfort and embarrassment around money, even people who have a lot of it.
Hmm. And that's so, so having shame about money, it's not just, I wish I had more, sometimes it's, I'm embarrassed by how much I have. I don't want anyone to know. Like, it, it feels a heavy, you know, it, there's a, there's a weight to it. And so unfortunately until you can figure out what money is and what it does and why it's important, um, you're really missing the boat.
If it's just a scoreboard, it's some numbers and, and at least one, and maybe two commas and maybe three if you know those folks. But, uh, other than that, it's just a scoreboard. You don't take it with you. You can change the world with it. You can do a lot of good with it. Um, you mentioned retirement. People hate the idea of retirement.
First of all, you get your first job at 21 and they're like, what do you wanna put in the retirement plan? You're like, retirement plan. I can't pay rent without three roommates. What do you, and I've got student loans. What are you nuts? The word retire is outdated. It's one of the reasons why the writing and the speaking and the, the, the things that I try to communicate are that retirement's dreadful for you.
No one should do it. We should all reach financial independence. We should graduate to the next level. And I know that's self-serving, but to me that's the message. The message is let's keep growing and advancing. Let's never quit, disappear and, and [00:11:00] retreat. So the shame piece, we talked about the retirement piece.
That to me is nomenclature. Let's stop talking about when we're gonna quit when we're 21 or 23 or 33. Because it's so esoteric, we don't know if we're gonna live that long. We don't know if we're gonna be married with six children or divorced three times. We don't know if we'll be healthy or not. We don't know if our parents will be alive.
We don't know what the world's gonna look like or where we'll be living or anything. It's impossible to know what we're gonna be doing in. 30 years, much less, sometimes 30 months. So rather than planning that way and trying to have this, this linear mountain like, oh, I need to reach this goal by this age and then I'm good, it's a moving target.
Life changes. That's, that to me is not the best way to do it. The best way to do, it's to figure out how to have a, a life of abundance. Now you asked about simple. Can it be simple? Yes, I think it can, but it requires some heavy lifting to create the simplicity. In other words, it's kinda think about a universal remote.
If you ever had a universal remote that controls like seven things, your TV and your, and your stereo and all this stuff we used to have back in the day when it wasn't. When it wasn't simple and you had this one remote that made everything simple. But in order to make it simple, you had to hire people to program it and set it up and figure it out because it was a mess.
And then once you got it, you're like, oh, I hit this button and good things happen. So I think creating simplicity with finance [00:12:00] requires a, a little bit of, of backstory, a little bit of work. Um, whether you do it yourself or whether you do it with some guidance is, is entirely up to you. But, but having the ability to simplify it, I'm actively trying to simplify my own financial life so that my wife should, she outlive me, isn't grossly daunted by, by what would be in front of her.
It's a lot. I'm trying to make it, uh, I'm trying to make it reasonably simple for anyone I leave behind. My wife, my child, my coworkers, my all the, all the folks. And you know, just because I understand my own finances doesn't mean somebody walking in the door would understand 'em right away. And they're all unique.
Chelsea, your, your financials are completely different than mine. I don't know why or how exactly. I just know they're completely different. And every single household. Different. Every single family, every single individual. You know, you show me two people who make the same amount of money, and I'll still show you the two completely different situations because one of 'em is in a high tax area and one's low, one's got four kids, one doesn't.
One is healthy and loves to travel, the other is not and needs a lot of medical care. I mean, the fact that you make X dollars income and wealth are not the same. So, you know, whenever I hear, oh, this is the wealthiest state. No, it's the highest income state. It's not the wealthiest state. I know a lot of people who make an extraordinary amount of money and can't put two nickels together.
And I know other people who have what, by all effects, is a modest salary or [00:13:00] modest compensation and have built significant nest eggs. And so I think more of it's behavior and psychology than, than just math. I, I feel like you hit that on the head with that last statement. Um, I can drop the mic if you want me to.
You did you want me to just drop the mic? I pull it out and drop it, please. No, I don't, I won't be able to pick it back up. No, that was, that was amazing. And what I really appreciate about what you said and your, your, your motto is don't retire or graduate. Um, and I couldn't agree more. I think part of the overwhelm is that retirement seems so far out.
Mm-hmm. Right. So far down the road, so big, so overwhelming, so it's easy to put it off. Mm-hmm. But with the idea of graduating, um, and keeping that simplicity in mind, it's really just about the next step. It's like, what step can I take now to just build onto this thing that we're now calling financial independence.
Mm-hmm. Right. And even when you graduate, 'cause you even said, you know, you're the guru of this, you do this for other people. Even you said, I am continually refining my own finances. It's not like we get to this place to where it's done and over with. It's set forever and always. That's right. It's a journey.
It's a process. It always requires that we revisit it once a year, twice a year, somewhere in that cadence. [00:14:00] Absolutely a hundred percent because it's not linear. You know, you can drive in a straight line, but it's hard to sail in a straight line. You tend to veer one way or the other. So you need to reposition, re navigate and figure out are we still headed at the right place?
And if so, how do we adjust our course? Now that we've been knocked off course by anything? And it could be good things or bad things, you could be knocked off course by a, a, a surprise windfall as much as you can by a surprise expense. Yeah. And I think that's relieving, like if I was listening to this and I was overwhelmed by this topic or how to do it, the fact that you're saying everybody's story is different.
Number one. Number two, one person can bring in the same exact amount of money and it is not going to move the same. Right. Which really drives home the point that each of our financial pictures is unique and all we need to worry about is our own. I think a lot of the psychology around money comes from comparing ourselves to other people's perceived Oh yeah.
Stories. Oh yeah. Keeping up with the Joneses. Most of the Joneses are what they refer to in Texas as Big Hat, no cattle. They got a fancy car, but they might be living in it someday 'cause they haven't built any real wealth. Truly. Yes. And I think that's so important to bring to the forefront because it is so easy to look at somebody else and we're assuming all of the right things, right?
Like we're assuming just because [00:15:00] they have that fancy car and that nice house that they have all this money in the bank and they're gonna retire and they have no struggles. But like you said, everybody has struggles. And a lot of times this is a facade. And so keeping that in mind as a listener, like my story cannot be compared to anybody else's at all.
My story is my story. All I need to do is focus on mine and what are my next steps? And the journey never ends. I dunno about you, but I have never in my career heard somebody say, I started planning for retirement too soon. Darn it. Yeah. No, that's right. No one ever, no one ever says that. No one has ever said that.
You're right in the history of ever, and you know, we or there's other people who just don't plan for it at all. I think you need to create, I, I've seen too many people who are so focused, laser focused on, on saving for retirement that they don't actually live. You know, because the pendulum can swing too far to where you're squirreling away every penny and you never take the trip and you never have the experience.
And it's actually a form of mental illness. It's very sad. Um, and then there's the other folks who blow every penny and hope for the best. It's like the grant and the ass, uh, the grant. Well, you can edit that out. An and the Grasshopper, not the grant and the ass hopper that just got said on your podcast.
Yes. We're gonna leave it. We can test. No, please don't. Please don't. Because I'm seven shades of red. Um, but no, it's like a, like a fable where, where one of 'em saves everything and the other one saves [00:16:00] nothing. And, and somehow now they're supposed to share at the end. So, um, you're, you're, you're right. I'm completely distracted by what just happened.
That's so good. That's so good. We insert bloopers at the end of 'em, so maybe we'll find an acceptable blooper. There. There you go. Please, please do that to me. I I will get you back. I welcome it. Let's go. Alright, fine. No. Um, and that's another good thing. Um. For people to really know and understand, there's two sides to this, right?
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and by focusing too much and prioritizing too much in investing for financial independence, you can create burnout. Yeah. Right? And there's definitely a balance between enjoying today, being present in the moment, creating experiences for yourself, for the people that you love and putting aside so that you can cultivate those experiences later in life.
Since you like simple, think about it this way, plan as if you might live forever. Live as if you might die tonight. If you can figure out that balance to where you do take the trip, you do enjoy the, the dinner with your spouse or loved one, you do, um, you do take work off early and go to your kid's soccer game because you know what?
There's some more important things in that meeting, whatever it is. Um, if you can do that while still keeping your eye on the ball long term. To me that's winning the money game, however you define it, uh, however you quantify it. To me, it's not [00:17:00] about the number itself, it's about having the experiences. Um, you know, you mentioned, you were talking about the Joneses and all of this stuff.
If, if in a world of social media, Chelsea, we, we all look at and scroll through and yada yada, and everybody's life is perfect, but ours, um, you know, everybody's living this Norman Rockwell experience and, and my day is just ho hum. And it's because what we're putting out there is not real. It's a highlight reel.
Maybe it's, it's the, you know, you put out there, I had the best meal of my night, of my life, not the six that caused food poisoning. And you threw out the window like, like people are, we're inclined to tell the winds. You know, people who gamble always talk about the one time they won, not that eight times they lost.
So rather than trying to keep up with folks, um, just having, having your own plan and, and by the way. On my show. Uh, to me we don't use the B word. And since I'm already swearing on your show, the B word is budget. Um, I'm not a big believer. I got reprimanded on your podcast for saying that I did correct and, and rightly so, and don't let it happen again.
Um, and, and the reason for that is that, that when you do that, budget to me is like a diet. Diet is not great nutrition, good idea, diet, restrictive and horrible Budgeting to me is long as you've put away enough for that long, long-term game, how you spend the rest of it and what you do and how you enjoy it.
Don't let anybody judge you on that. You decide what, what's most important for you. So, [00:18:00] no, to me it's about paying yourself first. It's not about the B word. Not gonna say it again. Okay. Fair enough. Um, yeah, and, uh, so I am a b pusher to a certain extent. Now I wanna, I wanna get into this real quick because you said this and because I'd like a, I like different perspectives, right.
Let's hash this to me in the middle. Yeah. Have you ever heard of Profit First by Michael Ick? I have not. I'm familiar with paying yourself first, but not profit first. So enlighten me. So for my people that I work with that hate the B word, rightfully so fairly so fine, I can work with that, right? Mm-hmm.
What this cash management system does is it takes the old school envelope system. You know what that is, right? Mm-hmm. I do. Okay. I know I do too. So I, I still know what that is. Um, but what it does is instead of envelopes with specific purposes, each dollar has a home in an envelope. We use bank accounts.
Mm-hmm. And once we go through and crunch the amounts for. The different accounts and how much they're gonna need by priority, right? Mm-hmm. Then we set up automatic transfers, so all the money moves automatically, and then whatever's left is their bougie budget. The bougie budget, it's like the bougie budget.
Yes. That's the bougie. Do whatever you want with it Shamelessly. Hmm. Okay. I, I'm comfortable with, I'm comfortable with the envelopes and, and yes, it's virtual now. It's it's bank [00:19:00] accounts. The one thing you said, Chelsea, I think is super important is that you automate it. It is really important. You talk about simplifying.
It's really important to automate these things because otherwise we get busy or we wonder if it's a good time to do this or, and we torture ourselves. So automating is really important and, and I like that. I'm not one of those people with 14 bank accounts for 14 purposes, but I have seen that and I've seen it work really well for people who, who like that strategy.
Yeah. Yeah. And we typically do five, not 14, don't get overwhelmed. But the idea of it is, we look at the B word once. We figure out our amounts, we automate things. Okay. And then we review them periodically. Right. Do the five accounts always get used the same way or is it different per Per household? Per family, it can vary per family, especially if, if they have kids and we need a specific kid tracking account.
Right. Got it. And again, like like you said, it's all about the automation of it. We don't have to think about it except for every three months when we're going through and making sure it's moving how it should be. Yeah. And, and with direct deposits today, it's possible to take a paycheck and have it divided into multiple accounts and have it cost you nothing.
And it's automated in lots of ways. So, yeah. I, for, for, for folks where that is helpful, I think it's great. There's no harm in it, there's no cost to it typically. There's no, there's no downside to it. Um, it, it is more cumbersome when you start reconciling things. But other than that, you know, Quicken can do that for you.
Yes. I just want it on [00:20:00] record that I got Eric to endorse a version of the B word on this record right here. Um, see this, this has been heavily edited and you can tell immediately. I'm just saying I, you know. Yes. I'm, I I did endorse your version. I did not, did not use the B word again. Okay? Yep, you're right.
And I'm, I'm with you. I'm holding up with you. That's fair. All right, so two more things. Two, yes, ma'am. Wanna do with you. The first of which I would like to know, what are the three most common things that you see holding people back, whether it's technical mindset, psychology, any of the above from starting.
Or if they've already started kind of refreshing it. Right. They've been stagnant. What are the three biggest things holding people back from truly learning their financial independent strategy? Well, the first one's inertia. 'cause the, the most powerful universe, the most powerful, you know, field in the universe is inertia.
If you haven't started, it's very tough to take that first step. You know, people who are just learning to walk aren't training for their first marathon. You know, like it takes a while to get to different stages. So I think inertia in and of itself. Is a challenge. I think right in line with that is procrastination.
People put things off thinking it's not a priority. Oh, I've got 40 years to worry about it. I've got 30, I have 20 years to worry about it. I'm not gonna worry about it. And that's when you said nobody ever starts too soon. Then there's that feeling of, ah, it's too late to start. Now I've, you know, [00:21:00] I've, I'm too close.
I'm 50 years old. I can't start putting away money. Now I'm, it's, I'm done. And so some of it is the, the timing and procrastination. And then I think the, the, the third thing to me is head trash. You know, this idea, um, and everyone's trash is different, but for some people it's shame about money. For some people, it's thinking that they're not worthy of, of doing these various things.
For some people don't think they have enough money to even plan. You know, we've had a lot of people who said, we didn't know we could even hire a financial advisor because we didn't think we had enough money. Well, what's enough money? You know, there's money is relative. You know, I, I, I quote philosophers in my book, and one I, one of the ones I quoted was Chris Rock, who at one point said that if Bill Gates woke up tomorrow with Oprah's net worth, he'd wanna jump out a window.
And that to me is how wealth is relative. The rest of us would live just fine on Oprah's net worth, I suspect. So, um, I would say there's head trash around it. And, um, this idea that we don't have enough or that we have so much it doesn't matter, or it just bad, bad mental thoughts. Hmm. Uh, so I definitely wanna give your book a shout out.
And does your book go into that? The head trash and what that might sound like, look like, somewhat. Can I do a shameless plug, please? There's a pig. There's a pig with a mortarboard. You don't see that every day. I love this. Yeah. Well maybe you see, I see it every day. It's right here, but, but you don't see it every day.
Yeah, no, and we will definitely put the links to that in the show notes, so that's great. This is an edited [00:22:00] question team, but do you have a specific link you wanna send us for that or can we just go find it on Amazon? Well, it is on Amazon, or you can go to, don't retire, graduate book.com. We'll send it to you RL then.
That's perfect. Okay, cool. Perfect. Since we're, since we're side barring for your, your producers, if you want, I can create a discount code for your listeners and we could shout that out so they'd have something special and the code I I, I guess we'll have to say. Always and never or something like that.
Like we'll do something or, yeah, so we can, so we can say, look, uh, for Chelsea, for your listeners, um, if you go to, don't retire, graduate book.com, and you enter always and never all lower case. Always and never. You'll get a discount on the book. Oh my gosh. Just to your listeners. Oh, listeners, did you hear that?
We got a special discount, so go snatch that asap. Thank you. There, there goes my financial plan. No, it's fine. All right. The last part of this is really meant for fun. It's kind of like a spitfire. I'm gonna say this or that, and you're gonna tell us which one and why. You need. Why? It can't just be a, a Okay, I'm ready.
I'm I'm playing by. It's your show. Your rules ready? Your show your rules. Yes, ma'am. Yes. Here we go. Save or invest? Invest. Oh, I have to say why, um, that or invest explanatory for you. Well, [00:23:00] well, I would say, I would say invest because saving by itself doesn't create enough growth to keep up with inflation.
Um, you know, saving's important, but once you've hit a small emergency fund, it's much better to invest for the long term, in my opinion. Absolutely. Stagnant money should be making money. Correct. Early retirement or meaningful work forever. It's meaningful work forever. I mean, that's, that's right in my wheelhouse.
I, you know, if you, if you define retirement as the absence of needing to work and you're financially independent and you're 33 at the time, that's awesome. But don't, don't just quit and sit on a beach, you know, I, I get bored in, in three days, much less six months or a year. So, um, maintaining meaningful work forever, I think is really important.
Do stuff you love, even if it's not lucrative, do something you love and you'll, you'll never, um, you'll never regret waking up in the morning. You'll be excited to go. I think that's one of the things that has scared people away from the word retirement are the statistics about when people pass away after retiring.
Yeah. It's not good for you. Yeah. It's not good for you. You need, you need purpose, you need a reason. And it doesn't have to be for money. If you don't need the money, it can be volunteering, it can be board service, it can be lots of things, but it can't just be, oh, I'm going to travel and see my grandkids.
Both of those things are lovely, but you can't spend 365 doing them. Um, and feel content generally. Mm. I appreciate that. 'cause it's easy to think about nostalgia around things like that. Right. [00:24:00] But really when it comes down to it, we need something to, to work at, to, to develop, um, that fuels our passion.
Mm-hmm. And for you splurge on experiences or things? Oh, experiences a hundred percent. I don't need things. I don't need stuff I'm referred to at our house as the great Zamboni, because I'm, I'm the world's greatest purger. I'm like the anti hoarder. If we haven't used it in six months, we're never gonna need it again.
I want experiences, I wanna see shows, I wanna go to concerts, I wanna experience life. Um, I don't give a darn about stuff. Hmm. I'm right there with you. I do the purge thing too. I would consider myself fairly a minim, a minimalist, and I love it. Yeah. No, I, I don't like clutter. Um, I really like it. Not, not that I'm so OCD, that everything has to have its place necessarily, but I don't like stuff to pile up with the, oh, I might need that two by four someday, so I'll leave it in the garage wrong.
Not doing it. The, I might need piles in the, oh, man. Yes. No ho hoarding to me. I, I don't understand this idea that, you know, someday I'm gonna want that stuffed animal again is. Generally not true. Keep one. Don't keep a hundred. Just, just saying. Yes, it is. It's that simplicity. I appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. All right.
Next one is high income or low expenses. Low expenses. Um, you know, I think income, high income creates some challenges including high taxation, depending where you live. Um, if you can maintain the [00:25:00] expense side such that you can live on less, then as your income grows, it becomes real abundance and amplitude.
But I think you have to control expenses first. I love that. The reason I love that is because of Parkinson's law. That's what comes to my mind. So Parkinson's law, when applied to money, says for every increase in income expenses will either meet or exceed it within four to six months, unless a specific force is put against it.
I love that this is science now. Um, and, and you know, I, I consider it kinda like, you know, a fish will grow to the size of its environment. Mm. If you're in a fishbowl and then you move to an aquarium, the fish grows. And if the aquarium becomes the ocean, the fish grows more. And um, and I think budgets can be that way.
And I used the B word again on your show, but, um, expenses, let's go with expenses can be that way. Where, um, if every time your lifestyle. Changes because of income and you spend a hundred percent or sometimes 110% of what you just, your raise was you're going the wrong direction. If you know that you need to put away 15 or 20 or 25 cents every dollar you make, and you do that and you continue to do that when your income goes up, you will not be on that treadmill and you'll be absolutely okay.
But no, I think you control expenses first. I love that. And for my ladies out there, it's the equivalent of when you buy a bigger purse, you find a way to fill. I, I have no, I have no comment. I have nothing to add to that. If it doesn't fit in my pockets, I'm not bringing it with me. So [00:26:00] you guys have it easy.
Yeah. There's this thing women where you don't, you guys never, you never have pockets. That's part of the problem. None of your gar pocket if either are not functional, can't fit anything in them. I, I can, I can. My packing list can be like four items and I'm good. Let's just go. Yeah. I keep a small purse on purpose because I will fill a big one.
I love it. Is it also true about a wallet, a larger wallet holds more money or just receipts and credit cards? See now that one I wouldn't know. No. My wallet's also, mine's also pretty minimalist. I, you know, I don't, I don't think I need, just like, I don't need 14 bank accounts. I don't need 14 credit cards either.
Yes. Agreed. All right. Well this has been amazing. Thank you so much for being a guest on my show after having me on your show. It's been great, and I, I'm not sure which one was more enjoyable. They were equal and, and a lot of fun. And, uh, hopefully folks will check out both of 'em because I really, I think there's a lot of synergy here despite, despite the argument about the, you know, the, the number of accounts and the B word and all the things.
I think there's a lot of synergy. It's good stuff. Yes, absolutely. You guys go on over and listen to my episode on Eric's podcast. We'll also link that in the notes as soon as it's out. Perfect. All right. We did it. We did it. That was fun. I knew it would be, I was waiting for like, you know, pizza cheeseburger.
Pizza. I, I [00:27:00] thought you were gonna throw some stuff like that at me. You know, I was gonna say pizza because it's a food group, but whatever. I, I was ready for it. Pizza food group. That's like multiple food groups, right? No. Pizza is its own, its own. I have a t-shirt that sometimes I run in when I actually decide to run.
It just says body buy pizza. So I love this. It a picture of that we can put on the tile of the podcast. Incorrect. Darn. Okay. No, no. I already said Ass Hopper on your show twice I think now. Three times. So, oh my God, that is awesome. I can't wait to tell my team that that just happened. I am deep red. That that was really fun.
It was fun. Matter of fact, Erica, that's who's gonna go edit this, Erica, let's see if we can just find a funny clip of that as a blooper at the end, and it can just be an audio and I'll have you approve it. It's fine. I, I honestly, you can't embarrass me. I'm fine. You can do anything you want with that because I think it's very human.
Yes. Seriously. Now. There's nothing I said that you can't air. I, I, you know, this was, uh, this was fun. It's very human and I, you know, I don't profess to be scripted in any way. I'm not, so you never know what I might say. Just ask my kid. Same. Yeah. Yeah. Like I cuss on your show and say the B word. You just never know what's gonna fly outta my mouth.
So when are we doing this again? I think we probably should co-host a show. You think I do? Okay. We should talk about it. Yeah, let's put [00:28:00] that in the calendar and see put on the, put on the old. That's very interesting. Yeah, the old 2026, uh, calendar because I'm, I'm convinced that, um, the show that I've been doing now for six years, um, which is reaching people and it's been, it's been wonderful.
It's a lot of fun. I don't have the ability to banter and I think the bantering back and forth, you know, Howard and Robin did the banter and it was very successful for a long time and I think there could be something there. Yeah. Okay. Um, I'm gonna have my va then when do you want to kind of touch base on this idea and see, well, why don't we let these, why don't we let these shows go live?
Okay. And see if the audience eats them up. Or it was like, he's terrible and I can't believe he said that on the air. Um, or vice versa. Like, my show just literally canceled. She said, budget, cancel her. My show got canceled. It was only live for 48 minutes. What the hell happened? Oh, all right. Sounds like a plan.
Well, yes. So why don't you, if you're gonna put something in your, in your tickler, why don't you do it after Labor Day? Because, uh, I spend most of the next six weeks at the beach not retiring. Uh, I love that for you. Yeah. I'm looking at my travel calendar through October. I have two trips in September, two trips in October, November.
I'll be in Virginia with my family. So this will last for, well, Virginia's close [00:29:00] depending where in Virginia. I'm, I'm just outside of Baltimore. We're really close. Oh, okay. So my mom and my sister are in Fishersville. Virginia. Virginia. Yeah. I dunno where that is. I've never heard of Fishersville. I think you're making that up.
I might be so good catch. No, I think it's like they're from Ass Hopper, Virginia. Yeah. Yeah. Just don't smoke up your ass. I appreciate that. It's by like Richmond. I know. Richmond is fairly okay. So yeah, that's about three hours. Okay. I go through Richmond, uh, every year on my way back and forth to Greensboro.
I know a bunch of business in North. Huh? Where are you? Where's home? Just you, Indiana. I am two hours south of Chicago next door to Indiana. Okay. So, so Illinois. Okay. Yeah. I knew you were, I knew you were in that sort of quarter. Okay. Yeah. All right. Well, we should figure something out. That would be ridiculously fun.
I could actually, I could actually see us doing, um, doing something live too. Um, yeah, because that a fun idea. Well, you have, you have really good energy and really good messaging and, um, and, and I think, I think we play really well off each other, and that doesn't happen every day, so it's kind of nice.
Yeah, no, that's true. And I agree. I've always thought like if I could find a good, like. Co person because that does create a completely different dynamic. Yeah. When you can do, like you said, that banter off of each other. So Yeah, we will definitely put a pin. I [00:30:00] was just in, uh, DC two weeks ago for, I was in for there for a mastermind.
Oh, nice. That is too. Yeah. I didn't even think a re who ran, who ran the mastermind? Who ran Charlie Mann. He is a, an email marketing guru in the legal space. Okay. Um, because my business niches and legal. Okay. Um, and so he had a mastermind. I flew out a couple days early to spend time with my mom and my sister.
That was a one day mastermind and I flew right back. Nice, nice. Well, I'm traveling a bunch, I'm doing a lot of, a lot of speaking. I'm speaking in Scottsdale in October. I'm speaking in, um, Austin, November, wait, Arizona? Yeah. Is that Arizona in October? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. First of all, keep me in mind, speaking is definitely a goal of mine.
Um, I'm, I'm struggling. I'm struggling finding paid speaking gigs. Yeah. And, and I really think for us, if we both wanted to do that, we would have to create a deliverable, a workshop, or, um, or something that would reach people from two different angles. We'd have to really think, well, you know, what do we each bring to the table that's a little bit unique and how do they, how do they puzzle piece together such that it's a, a cohesive thing?
And whether that's about money or whether it's for executives or business owners or other things, I'm, I'm, I'm actively seeking new fun things to do. You know, I'm, I'm stepping down, like I said, January one, [00:31:00] and I'm, I'm gonna be doing more writing, graduating, not retiring, we're speaking. Correct. I'm never retiring.
It's true. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm still gonna be here. I'm not, I'm not leaving the business, so to speak, but I'm not client facing anymore. Yeah. And, uh, and so I, I get to sort of reinvent myself and it's, it's a very cool thing. So I created this process that I've taken some consulting clients through, that they absolutely like eat up and it's what I call the joy revenue matrix.
And it's where you figure out the things that make you more successful, but also the things that make you more happy. And you sort of plot these things and decide what to spend more time doing, what to spend less, what to delegate, what to automate, what to punt. And um, and there was a book idea actually in there.
Um, but I actually think it's more of a workshop and, and it's for business owners. It doesn't have to be for financial people. Um, but it has to be professional. That's not personal. So that's like a, a business to business kind of conversation. Um, I'm speaking on succession planning. I'm speaking at two conferences, two financial advisors.
One is on, um, one is on. Internal equity transfers to junior advisors, and one is on succession planning and how to, how to do it right and how not to do it right. Um, but, um, you know, we, I, I just did a program in, in Palmetto, Florida, which was on, um, it, it was for personal. It was like there were 45 folks there or something.
And we were talking about, um, we were talking about financial independence and redefining retirement, and that was a ton of fun too. I don't know. You'd be good live. You'd [00:32:00] be good in front of it. You'd be good on stage. Yeah. Well, and that's, that's my goal. I'm actually taking a speaking program, like a whole curriculum on public speaking with Trisha Brooke, who's one of the OG founders of TED Talk.
That starts next month. I'm really excited about it. And immediately when you're talking about what you're doing, Uhhuh my plug into everything that you're doing, whether it's business or personal mm-hmm. Is that cash management system with automations, minimum balance alerts. It is an automated cash management system.
Personally, it needs, it needs to be a book or a workbook or some kind of course. Yeah. So it's funny, I'm, I'm starting a public speaking course in August too. With who? A financial behavior keynote group. Okay. Um, run by Mary, be Carlson, who I think is amazing. She's a PhD from K State, um, and has put together a cohort group, and it's from August to December to create my keynote for financial behavioral type stuff.
Um, you know, and, and I, I've done enough public speaking, but I, I, I don't have a scripted, I've never scripted anything. I'm sure it's all not, I need that framework of how to design and deliver any keynote starting with this one. Correct. So that's funny. We're accountability buddies. So part of this program, I know is practicing it in front of people.
So if you need an accountability buddy. Like, I'm sure I do these segmented run through and be like, all right, let's go. Like, I'm here. I, I think I, I think my course meets, um, it, it's either [00:33:00] twice, um, I think it's twice a month on Wednesdays. Um, and it's, it's a cohort group, so I have people to bounce ideas off of, but it's so funny.
We're both starting that next month. I know, right. And that's our goal. Okay. I'll definitely keep you in mind too. I was gonna say, if you have not, if you're not very involved with the legal industry, you're not Right. You don't work with law firms specifically, or maybe, oh, I do a lot of work with lawyers.
I'm, I'm an accredited estate planner. I do a lot, I'm part of the, I'm part of the National Association of State Planners and Councils. I go to the Heckerling Institute for State Law, university of Miami Law every year. I do a lot of work with lawyers. I speak lawyer. I did not go to law. One of the very interesting things that has taken place since, so I started in 2017.
Okay. One of the biggest shifts in the industry is that states are starting to deregulate who can be a legal owner of a law firm. Hmm. Some of 'em are opening up to non-licensed attorneys now. So basically what's gonna happen, and there's a lot of debate on likability of this, taking hold across many states, a few states, regardless it's happening.
Lawyers' weaknesses are that they do not have an entrepreneurial mind. In fact, law school de-personalize them to a certain extent. Mm-hmm. These entrepreneurs are going to come in, learn the industry of law, make it profitable, and put them outta business. So right now is pivotal for law firm owners to, first of all, buy into the idea that they can exit profitably.
Mm-hmm. Doesn't mean they have to sell to an entrepreneur, somebody they don't know, [00:34:00] like a succession planning and all that. Well, there is a need in that space for workshops, speaking courses on what you talk about. Exactly. Wow. Well if, if you have a entree to that or if you wanna put something together, I would be honored.
Um, the, it's funny because I was supposed to speak in August at the, uh, at the Illinois, it was the Illinois, uh, legal planning council or something like that. And they postpone it till February. But I'm gonna be in Chicago speaking to a bunch of lawyers in February. Okay. Let me know when that date is 'cause I love any excuse to take the train up to Chicago.
I love Chicago. Alright, well you, you, you can get me to Chicago for lunch. Right. Like, like literally, I'll hop on, I'll hop on you, take me to mal ns and you have me in alone. Um, so what, whatever you need or, or a copies game, either one. Um, but, uh, yeah, so let, let's continue this conversation, um, because, um, I, I have a lot of fun with that.
I, I really think there's a way to monetize it. You know, the podcast, we did some advertising for the podcast and it really wasn't very successful and I was pretty bummed to by it. Like we had joined a network and there were supposed to be cross promotion. And so many people in the podcast industry are so flaky, they just don't do what they say they're gonna do.
So there's a conference called FinCon. Which is for money and media. And, uh, this year it's in Portland, Oregon. Not my favorite place, although I like Newburgh. Um, but it's, it's like four days of, of content creators, podcast [00:35:00] creators, YouTubers, bloggers, writers, um, all in the financial space. And if you're not familiar with that, it's someplace you probably should, should try to go.
I have heard of it. I did a booth last year, which was great. I met a ton of people this year. I'm not doing a booth, I'm just showing up and, and, uh, and shaking hands and kissing babies. But it's, it's a fun group. It's got me a lot of great podcast guests. It's got me landed on a lot of very cool shows. And, uh, beyond that, it's, it's a way to collaborate with other authors, with other content creators, with other speakers.
So it's something you ought to look into. It's October, I think. Okay, so I, yeah, and I have two trips in October, so that might not be this year, but a next year thing. One more thing before I let you go. Yeah. Because I got a meeting coming up. You said you were in Scottsdale. When are you in Scottsdale? I am in Scottsdale, Arizona, October 22 to 25.
I might be in Sedona that same exact time. Really? Yeah. My team is planning a trip for me right now. How cool. I'll be at the Phoenician in Scottsdale, I'm speaking that Friday, um, to a room of, uh, financial advisors who are at this top of the table meeting for some successful people will be there. Be kinda cool.
Yeah, and I'm, I'm, I'm coming in Wednesday midday and I leave Saturday morning. Although I could extend, if there was an opportunity to collaborate, I, I could [00:36:00] extend on the front end or the back end. Okay. And preferably the front, 'cause I gotta be in Boston the next week. I apologize. What were those exact dates again?
22 to 25, Wednesday to Saturday. And it would be easy to, to add to the front. So if you're, if you're, I, I don't know, Sedona to Scottsdale's, I'm not sure exactly how far that is, but. It's just as easy to meet. It's just as easy to meet in Chicago though. True. Yeah, it's not hard at all. I mean, there's a flight every 45 minutes or something silly and it's nothing, so.
Okay, cool. Well, we'll just, um, I'll see when my dates land and if not Chicago it is. And if not, we got a lot of things to stay in touch about. So I agree. I agree. This is good stuff. Um, for sure. I'm really enthusiastic and this thing with the lawyers, um, first of all, if I was allowed to own a law for my.
Because, you know, we're using wealth.com and having estate documents done remotely for clients who wanna do that legally we're, I'm not a lawyer, but we're able to do, to provide that. And it's only a matter of time. I'm involved with True State, which is this awesome company built, uh, outta New Jersey too.
Incredible women who built, uh, an estate administration software program that they're selling to law firms, that, that helps automate some of the things that no one wants to pay a lawyer to do. 'cause they're low price point things and annoying things. It's like, you know, closing your utility account and finding your [00:37:00] Facebook password and all the nonsense.
And I'm doing a, I'm also working with somebody on Thursday, I'm doing a webinar with Tara Rudo, who runs a company called No More Piles, which actually goes in when somebody dies and helps clean out all the stuff, but also finds a lot of financial, you know, um, oh, I bet they find Easter eggs. You know, they find the, yeah, they find the stocks are, that's under the mattress savings bonds or freaking silver like, like you just don't know.
So. Alright, well this was fun. I have, uh, four minutes to eat before my next show. Um, yes, please do. My stomach just yelled at me, so I think eat Me too. Let's, we're the same, the next meeting? Yes. Good. That we're on the same cycle. Take care. Alright, talk to soon and lemme know when this is live so I can get mine out first.
I'll, and I'll, and I'll have that code if you use an ETA, we'll tell you immediately. So we don't, I will have the, the book code for a discount, um, of always and never all lowercase. Um, one word. And you can put it as sort of a run on word. Yeah. Always. Never. Okay. It'll be right up your, right up your alley.
But let me, I have to have my team design that. It'll take two minutes. I just have Oh yeah. No biggie. We'll have it in time. Awesome. Good to see you. All right, you too. Talk to you soon. Yep. Thanks. Bye. If you liked this episode, be sure to show us some love by subscribing and turning on those [00:38:00] notifications.
You can find me on Instagram under the Money Whisper. And also where we encourage you to contribute to join the conversation, ask questions, and share your thoughts so we can create more episodes tailored exactly to what you wanna know about money. I'm your host and your personal money whisperer. Until next time, remember, it is always and never about the money.
Perfect. Perfect that work. 'cause I don't want to be just like the others in the herd. No, I'm too much of an alpha male for that. Chelsea. I'm not doing it right. Well, I'm doing you a favor. I'm, I'm propping you up on a different esal. Here you are. Wow. I, you know, I, I'm gonna owe you, I'm gonna owe you some kind, some form of riches, but yes.
Yeah, I'll be like, guys, wait for marker 10 minute 30 seconds. Yeah. Right. Yes. Yeah. He said yes. I can't believe he agreed to, to give me his company. Yeah. No, it's good. I weird. I.